Abortion - The Murder Comparison

Banning abortion will not stop abortions. People will just go "underground" where the "doctors" are far less trained and only increase the risk to the mother.

Nathan:

Let us also legalize all murder so that victims can be murdered more efficiently.

Pro-Choice Advocate D:

I'm getting tired of hearing "Abortion is murder", it's been said thousands of times and we're beyond that by now. Read the past debate or get out of it please.

Nathan:

Apparently, the argument rests on this. If someone were to somehow prove to you beyond doubt that abortion is murder, would you still support it? To support it without proof that it is not murder is the equivalent to guilty until proven innocent. I prefer the opposite.

Pro-Choice Advocate D:

No, that's not the crux of the argument. The argument now is life VS liberty, which is more important? I say we have more than enough life as it is to go on for billions of generations to come (if we don't destroy the planet first) and he says life should be protected at all costs, including getting rid of personal freedom.

Nathan:

If you believe that abortion is murder, then you say that life and liberty are both violated by aborting.

Pro-Choice Advocate D:

Tell me this though, whose right is violated through abortion? "The baby". It's not even an individual; it's just "a baby". It's not "Edward Michaels the preacher from down the chapel" or "Michael Edwards the poor down-on-his-luck hobo down the street". No, they're "A baby." A nameless entity. They're like ghosts. Shadows of people, a specter of a person, a visage.

Nathan:

But, if you believe that abortion is murder, you believe that the unborn baby is a person with the right to live.

Pro-Choice Advocate D:

Will you stop repeating the same argument over and over! Say something new! I don't think it's murder, but arguing as YOU people think it is I'm still trying to make my point.

Nathan:

I know you don't believe it's murder. That's why it's impossible to agree with you about what protecting "personal freedom" is. All you've said is that you believe it is not murder. There's nothing new to say to that. Here, I'll try? I would go as far as to say I think I agree with you about protecting "personal freedom" except *covers head* I think abortion violates "personal freedom".

Pro-Choice Advocate D:

I've given point after point, reason after reason throughout this thread; you just didn't bother reading any of it.

Nathan:

These are quotes by you I found and my answers to them.

"Unborn fetuses are not "people" per-se, any more than a woman's unfertilized eggs are"

This can't be right. Otherwise, how do fetuses become babies when unfertilized eggs don't?

"Well wanna ask the fetus if it wants to be born? Oh yeah, that's right, it doesn't have a brain yet."

No brain? That would be because it's perfectly normal not to have a brain at that point. (It has been brought to my attention that at the fetal stage of development of an unborn child, a brain has formed. I mistakenly reponded to what I thought this person meant to say instead of what the person actually said.)

"something that doesn't exist yet"

Fetuses do exist. I'd hate to think of our mental state if we discussed how to treat what does not exist...

"Okay, when it can live and breathe of its own devices outside of the womb."

So location determines whether you have the right to live? I find that rather arbitrary. This reminds me of someone who loves all animals equally saying it's wrong to shoot a moose cuz you killed it, but it's okay to take a fish out of water since it just dies on its own.

"Pro-Choice Advocate D: Why should the sins of the rapist be held against his victim? That's what you're doing by making the mother go against her wishes, saying, "You got raped, YOU accept the consequences." "Why should an innocent woman be "sentenced""

Is she really innocent? She's relatively innocent, but not as innocent as the fetus. She certainly isn't even relatively innocent anymore if she aborts it...

"Do you think anyone who takes a life under any circumstances at all should go to prison? It's a valid argument and applies to this discussion as well."

Someone who purposely takes the life of one who is innocent and intends no harm should go to jail.

"Oppression of who exactly? People of all races and walks of life have abortions, we're hardly only aborting black or Hispanic babies here."

...people of all races and of the first "walk" of life

"You don't miss what you never had"

So murder is just wrong because it takes away what one has previously experienced? Now, how can you take away something that is in the past? I went to church yesterday. Let's assume it was the most awesome church service ever. That experience is gone whether you murder me now or I live to be 100. Instead, I don't want anyone to murder me because next week's service might be awesome again.

"Then why does it TAKE nine-months for a child to be born?"

Why does it take 15-20 years to have an adult-sized body? That's how human beings grow.